Hi Menno,
thank you for chiming in. Great that we can get a joint discussion going!
Post by Menno ValkemaThis is great. Currently we're trying to accomplish a similar thing for
RPC calls and Signals. The approach with statically configured proxies
you take, also made most sense to us, which is what we did for RPC
calls, and we're now trying to use it for Signals. Combined with your
work it seems together we made the first steps towards distributed use
of the fundamental IPC mechanisms provided by Genode (shared memory,
rpc, and signals).
Intuitively, I see the appeal of proxying those low-level mechanisms.
Once these three mechanisms are covered, any session interface could be
reused in a distributed fashion. However, practically, I doubt that this
approach is the best way to go because it discards a substantial benefit
that Genode gives us: The knowledge about the semantics of the
information to transmit (1). At the same time, it will ultimately become
complex (2). Let me illustrate both problems separately.
1) Exploiting our knowledge about the transferred information
For the sake of argumentation, let us take a look at the framebuffer
session interface. It basically consists of an RPC call to request a
shared-memory buffer (as dataspace) and an RPC call for reporting
rectangular areas within the framebuffer to be updated. The actual
pixels are transferred via the shared-memory buffer. Signals are used to
let the client synchronize its output to the refresh rate of the
framebuffer. With the approach of merely wrapping the three low-level
communication mechanisms into network packets, the interface would rely
on RPC via TCP, a distributed shared memory technique, and a signaling -
possibly also via a TCP connection.
This is not how a network protocol for remote desktops is usually
designed. Instead, such protocols leverage the knowledge about the
specific domain, in this case, transferring pixels. Exploiting these
known semantics, they can compress the pixels via pixel-oriented
compression algorithms, drop intermediate frames if detecting a low
network bandwidth, and possibly decide to not proxy the sync signals
over the network because the network latency would render them useless
anyway. Instead, we would produce artificial periodic sync events at the
local proxy.
Similar observations can be made for the other session interfaces as
well. E.g., it is perfectly fine to drop network packets of a NIC
session. But it would be wrong to do that for block requests. When
looking at the file-system session, the issue becomes even more
apparent. The file-system session uses shared memory to carry payload
between client and server. Using the low-level proxy approach, we would
again employ a distributed shared memory mechanism instead of
straight-forward packet-based communication. This is just wrong.
In short: Genode's session interfaces are painfully bad as network
protocols because they are not designed as network protocols.
Hence, instead of proxying the low-level mechanisms, I warmly recommend
to take a step back and solve the proxying problem for different session
interfaces individually. Granted, this approach does not "scale" with a
growing number of session interfaces. On the other hand, we actually
don't have a scalability problem. The number of session interfaces
remained almost constant over the past years. So it is unlikely that we
will suddenly see an influx of new session interfaces. In practice, we
are talking about approx. 10 session interfaces (Terminal, ROM, Report,
Framebuffer, Input, Nic, Block, File-system, LOG) to cover.
Consequently, the presumed generality of the low-level proxy approach
does not solve a scalability problem.
As another benefit for solving the proxying in a session-specific way,
we can reuse existing protocols in a straight-forward way. E.g., just
using VNC for proxying the framebuffer session. This would, as a side
effect, greatly improve the interoperability of the distributed Genode
systems with existing infrastructures.
2) Complexity
As you mentioned, Genode relies on three low-level communication
mechanisms (synchronous RPC, signals, and shared memory). Genode's
session interfaces rely on certain characteristics of those mechanisms:
* Low latency of RPC. Usually, the synchronous nature of RPC calls is
leveraged by the underlying kernel to take scheduling decisions. E.g.,
NOVA and base-hw transfer the scheduling context between the client
and the server to attain low latency. On the network, this assumption
does no longer hold true.
* The order of memory accesses in shared memory must be preserved. E.g.,
In packet-stream-based session interfaces, packet descriptors are
enqueued into the request queue _after_ the payload got written into
the bulk buffer. If we don't preserve this order (as most attempts
at distributed shared memory do), the server would possibly observe a
request before the associated bulk-buffer data is current.
* Signals must not be dropped.
When attempting the proxying of the low-level mechanisms, those
characteristics must be preserved. This is extremely complicated,
especially for shared memory. The resulting sophistication would
ultimately defeat Genode's biggest advantage, which is its low complexity.
Post by Menno ValkemaWhere we both have some form of serialized commands (in your case it's
handled by the ip backend with an enum identifying the action is being
sent over), we choose, for now, not to specify any sort of
transportation mechanism except a bare nic session, and send raw data
over nic sessions. In case we need an ip layer, we plan to move this in
a separate component which knows how to handle ip, ipsec or some other
protocol.
That sounds very cool!
Post by Menno Valkema- Manual marshalling. Right now we marshall the rpc calls manually.
Genode already has a great marshalling mechanism in place, however I
didn't manage to re-use this, so for now I do it by hand. This seems
like a bit of a waste, so in a later stage I hope to look into this again.
It is tempting. But as I discussed above, I think that the attempt to
leverage Genode's RPC at the transport level for the distributed
scenario is futile.
Post by Menno Valkema- Cross CPU architecture usage of arguments. How to handle integer
arguments or structs with integer arguments between big/little endian
architectures, or systems with a different notion of word-lengths and
struct alignment?
- We're still working on Signals.
- Routing. Presently we statically configure how the client-proxy and
the server-proxy are connected. It would be better if we had more
flexibility here, like what's now being provided by init.
- Capabilities. It would be great to have some sort of distributed
capability system to have stricter control over who talks to who.
The endian issues, signals, and capabilities are further indicators
hinting at the possibly wrong approach.
Your remark about the routing and dynamics is of course a limitation of
the static proxies (which are actually modeled after device drivers,
which also operate on static resources - the devices). I propose to not
take on this problem before we have developed a good understanding of
our requirements. E.g., I don't foresee that we will distribute a Genode
system arbitrarily. Instead, we will intuitively select our "cut points"
in ways that minimize remote communication. So maybe, the flexibility of
init's routing won't be needed. Or we will discover that we will need
some other kind of flexibility.
Best regards
Norman
--
Dr.-Ing. Norman Feske
Genode Labs
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